A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Now let's hear more about NATO countries' responses to President Trump's demands for help protecting the Strait of Hormuz. Ian Lesser is a distinguished fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States. He's joining us from Brussels. So, Ian, after countries such as Germany rejected President Trump's demands for help, he told reporters, we don't need anybody. Ian, do you have an understanding of what exactly President Trump is asking for?
IAN LESSER: I think what he's looking for, frankly, is less operational support and more symbolic support. I mean, he said as much, actually, in his news conference the other day that he, you know, the enthusiasm matters to him. Well, you know, there's very little enthusiasm now because, as you just heard in the reporting, this is just the latest in a crisis of trust across the Atlantic that goes from trade policy to security policy. And, of course, there's a war going on in Europe's east, and many will view this as a distraction.
MARTÍNEZ: So more of a willingness to help as opposed to bodies and ships and equipment?
LESSER: Well, yes. And I think on the European side, there's a lot of concern that even though they're fully exposed to the economic consequences of the shutdown of Hormuz, there's no question about that, that, you know, they would simply be putting forces in harm's way with absolutely no say in the strategy and no sense of when this would end. You know, it's quite possible in their view that President Trump might simply sort of say, well, all right, we've met our war aims, however defined, and over to you Europeans to protect shipping in the Strait of Hormuz going forward. And so, you know, there's a great deal of uncertainty about that. There is exposure. There's no question. But operationally, it's not so easy for European allies to contribute to that mission. They can do so in the Eastern Mediterranean. And I could imagine a scenario in which they sort of backfill for American forces in the Mediterranean, allowing the U.S. to send more to the Gulf.
MARTÍNEZ: So it sounds like countries do not want to be pulled in or allow themselves to be pulled into something that they don't have much control over.
LESSER: Well, I think that's exactly it. And, you know, just as in the United States, or perhaps even more so in Europe, public opinion is just not on the side of intervention here. You know, and as you had heard, of course, there's not a lot of enthusiasm for the Iranian regime, obviously, but what to do about it? And you simply - you know, Europe feels it's just not in control of the strategy and therefore, doesn't want to put its forces in harm's way.
MARTÍNEZ: The thing is, Ian, we've seen heads of state try to ingratiate themselves with President Trump over the past year. Why do you think this is different?
LESSER: I think there's been a growing frustration with the failure of various approaches to the administration in trying to repair what has been a very challenging transatlantic relationship over the last year. I mean, it's a whole set of things from trade to Greenland, a weakened climate policy. It's a very long list - Ukraine - of which this is sort of the latest. And so it's a broad-gauge crisis of trust, I would say, and at this point, you could say it's mutual.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, Estonia is an example of a country that is open to talking with the U.S. about protecting the Strait. What do you make about Estonia's different reaction than some other countries?
LESSER: Well, there will be different views about this in Europe. I mean, part of it is about, you know, the willingness quid pro quo. You know, they very much need the United States commitment to Baltic security. Therefore, they feel they ought to be helpful on this front. There are also countries in Europe, some actually smaller NATO members, who have niche capabilities when it comes to mine sweeping and things of that nature. But they're not of a lot of use unless they're integrated in a bigger force that can protect them from all kinds of other threats if they were to operate in the Strait of Hormuz. So, you know, it's a delicate balance here between trying to say the right thing to the administration and not make the situation worse and actually being able to offer something useful. And that balance is not yet clear.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah, Estonia's proximity to Russia - I mean, they share a border with Russia - might have something to do with their willingness to work with the U.S. on this.
LESSER: And, you know, as you were discussing earlier, you know, there is this tension. Yes, Europe is going to pay more and do more in its own defense. The administration sees that as a victory, which, in some ways, it is perhaps, for their strategy. But what is that spending and that strategy going to be focused on? And, you know, for a country like Estonia and others, it's very much about countering Russia and these issues that can arise, which are very real in the south, in terms of missile defense and counterterrorism. You know, we're going to have to think about those things as well. The thing that could change this equation, of course, is if there were a direct, successful attempt, you know, to attack a NATO country that would - Turkey, for example - those haven't been successful. That would change the equation completely.
MARTÍNEZ: All right. Ian Lesser is a distinguished fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States. Ian, thank you very much for your thoughts on this.
LESSER: Good to be with you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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