STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Now, the host of this NATO meeting, Turkey's President Erdogan, is a big personality who is hosting a big American personality. David Satterfield knows them both. He served as U.S. ambassador to Turkey under President Trump and also under President Biden. Ambassador, welcome.
DAVID SATTERFIELD: Delighted to be with you.
INSKEEP: What does Erdogan want out of this meeting?
SATTERFIELD: What Erdogan wants is what Erdogan always wants, which is authenticity, legitimization and a spotlight. And this summit and its setup will give him all three.
INSKEEP: Would you help explain for people who don't follow this every day what Turkey's historic role in NATO has been? They're a longtime member, right?
SATTERFIELD: They are indeed, and they are the second largest ground force in NATO. They are extraordinarily competent and have taken on many NATO missions, which other NATO states either have been unable or unwilling to do. That's sort of Point 1. Point 2 is Turkey's geography. It is in a critical place on the map, and it provides critical access and presence for NATO vis-a-vis Russia and other threats.
INSKEEP: Has Turkey become a less comfortable fit for NATO as it has become a less democratic state in recent years?
SATTERFIELD: Well, here you have a dilemma. Turkey is very much a comfortable military security alliance contributor fit, but it is not a full-blown democracy as it once was. It's best described as perhaps a competitive authoritarian state, where institutions of democracy still exist, but there has been critical weakening of political processes, and above all, the judicial process within Turkey. So that does make it uncomfortable.
INSKEEP: When you say a weakening of the judicial process, you mean that Erdogan can have his opponents jailed, I think.
SATTERFIELD: The judiciary in Turkey is a tool of the executive. It is not independent in any meaningful sense when it comes to political issues. And President Erdogan has shown greater confidence over the course of the past year in going beyond unleveling of the playing field for democratic competition to actually shaping the character of the Turkish opposition in a way that makes it basically unable to compete with him.
INSKEEP: What do you mean by that?
SATTERFIELD: He has jailed the leading opposition candidate. He has jailed many of the municipality leaders, both in Istanbul and other major cities, who come from the opposition party, clearly in order to prepare for another electoral campaign if he can get the constitution amended, which would permit him to run with support from these big cities.
He's done something else as well, though. He has ousted the head of the opposition party on charges of fraud in the internal party electoral system and installed the predecessor to that individual, who is not likely to pose a serious challenge to Erdogan.
INSKEEP: So he's not only picking the leaders of his party, he's picking the opponent that he wants.
SATTERFIELD: That is exactly right. Quite unprecedented in Turkey, but a sign of Erdogan's confidence that he can do it.
INSKEEP: Do NATO allies just have to smile and be nice about this because it's an important ally?
SATTERFIELD: Look, the NATO allies have to make a very difficult pragmatic decision here. Turkey is an invaluable, critical NATO security partner, both by position and by contribution. But its democratic processes are deeply weak and deeply affected. There's got to be a balance struck. And very frankly, given the challenge from Putin, that balance is going to go on the side of the military security contributions and value of Turkey, rather than insisting upon democratic principles being restored.
INSKEEP: Now, I would imagine a good deal of the conversation of the NATO allies is going to have to do with one country to the east of their host country, Iran.
SATTERFIELD: Absolutely. Every attending state, and the alliance as a whole, is going to want to hear from the president what his plans are with respect to the Strait of Hormuz. Because what happens there, whether the strait truly reopens on the basis of the status quo ante February 28 - that means no tolls, no service charges, no collection of money or on some other basis - is a critical concern to every single state there, as it is to the United States.
INSKEEP: Do you think that the European allies have confidence that the United States knows what it's doing at this point?
SATTERFIELD: I do not believe the European states or NATO member states have any, quote, "confidence," close quote, in any actions that might be taken by the United States at this point, particularly with respect to the strait.
INSKEEP: Do they have a better idea?
SATTERFIELD: No, they don't. They will want to hear from the president what is he prepared to accept if he, in fact, knows.
INSKEEP: David Satterfield was the U.S. ambassador to Turkey under the first Trump administration and the Biden administration. Ambassador, thanks so much.
SATTERFIELD: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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