Kellams: This is the Monday edition of Ozarks at Large. Most Mondays we have Randy Dixon from the David and Barbara Pryor Center for Arkansas Oral and Visual History.
Dixon: Hello there, Kyle.
Kellams: Hello, Randy.
Dixon: Great to be back.
Kellams: Great to have you back. We are concluding something that started last week.
Dixon: I bit off a little more than I could chew for one episode.
Kellams: You've done that before, and that's fine.
Dixon: I do it all the time. My eyes are always bigger than my mouth and my stomach. So anyway, this is part two of what I like to call the Faubus tapes.
Kellams: The lost interview.
Dixon: The lost interview — That gets the exclamation. Yes.
Kellams: You know, I tried to find a way to do a reverb or an echo, and I just didn't know. Maybe I'll get our technical director on that.
Dixon: Okay. That could be cool.
Kellams: The idea is that this was footage and interviews of Orval Faubus long after he was out of office, in 1982, collected and then never seen.
Dixon: Forgotten about. Jim Pitcock, who started the archives in the late '70s, early '80s, was still building. And in 1982 he decided to assign one of our reporters, Frank Thomas, to follow Faubus for a week. He had a new book out called "Down From the Hills," and he was just traveling around the state, setting up a card table and selling it, usually either in front of or inside a courthouse. And he sat down with Faubus after that for a two-hour interview, and then with a couple of his aides, longtime confidant supporters, up an hour each with them. And then they put all of this footage in the archives and kind of forgot about it. It sat there from 1982 until a week before last, when I found it.
Kellams: And from what we can tell from what you were saying last week, there was never really an idea of what this was for to begin with.
Dixon: Right. It was just to save. Jim Pitcock was thinking, "All right, we have the old news. Let's just collect some historical material for archive." And that's exactly what it did. Let's hear from Faubus first. Here's KATV reporter Frank Thomas, and I thought this was an appropriate clip. We're going to talk to a couple of his lieutenants, and this is where Faubus talks about what he considers loyalty in politics as a political figure.
Thomas: What does the word loyalty mean to you?
Faubus: It means that you're going to follow the directives and the policies of the administration, and that if you can't do it, if it's contrary to your principles, if it's something wrong about it, if it's something that you can't do, then you go into the man and you tell him and you give him your resignation. Otherwise, you carry out the policies. Now beforehand, you come in and you express yourself freely.
You can disagree as strongly as you want to. But after all of the information is gathered and evaluated and all the facts considered, and a decision is made, then loyalty is, if you're an administration, that you're supposed to carry that out. But more important than that is that your loyalty to administration each day that you work, meaning that you're not offending people needlessly or usually uselessly. You're not taking off from work when you should be there at work. You're not causing any embarrassment for the administration in that respect. That means you're a good, dedicated servant of the people that you're serving. That means you're a good, loyal member of the administration.
Now, loyalty doesn't mean doing what shouldn't be done or what's wrong. I think before I could be completely loyal to any administration, I've got to believe in that administration. And if that administration, if its affairs are being conducted in such a manner as to be honorable and honest and not get anyone into serious difficulty, then you can be loyal to that administration.
Kellams: I'm no historian, I'm no political scientist, so this is dangerous ground for me. But then you put that against the Central High crisis, and it's, "This is the decision that's been made. Let's not try to analyze it. Let's not search for nuance. If you're with me or against me."
Dixon: Yeah. So it was not the loyalty to the state or to justice. It was, he said, to this administration. So that meant to him and his policies. So my way or the highway.
Kellams: Ride or die.
Dixon: So let's talk to a couple of these guys. Okay. They were both with him for the full twelve years, all six terms. The first person is the guy you heard at the very beginning, Clarence Thornbrough. And he acted as the main gatekeeper and liaison during Faubus' twelve years in office. So, not surprisingly, both of them sang the praises of their old boss. But here's what Thornbrough had to say.
Thornbrough: I think his sincerity in wanting to do what was best for the people in the state of Arkansas, his willingness to work hard and long hours, and his ability to just sort of absorb what the people were thinking — this, I think, probably was the most important characteristic that he had, was that it was just like he had the feelers out and could sense what the people were feeling. And he was always way ahead of everybody else in knowing how the people felt about some certain issue. And I think that was his main advantage over other people. And he was always very modest about this. He said, "It takes one to know one, and I come from the common people, and that's the reason I know how they feel." And he was an awful easy man for me to work for. I don't guess during the twelve years that we were together that the governor ever told me to do anything. I don't guess he ever had to.
Kellams: I'm guessing if you stayed with your boss for twelve years, you're on his side.
Dixon: You believed in him. Anything he said, you would back? And if you didn't, you could quit, right? So let's check in with Frank again, talking about campaigning and how campaigns have changed.
Thomas: When you first started in 1954, it was a lot of what we call stumping — traveling the state, flatbed trucks, dinner on the ground at the city parks. Then in the '60s we seem to slip away from that to much more of a media campaign, less and less of the pumping hands on the town squares and what have you. Do you think we've gone through cycles — the late '50s and early '60s of politics, and then the television and the charismatic and the media? And do you think we'll get back to that old style of campaigning, or are we looking that way?
Faubus: Many people have thought that it's a thing of the past, that it's gone. It may well be. For instance, we have grown used to the comfort of an air-conditioned room where we can come in from work, sit down in an easy chair, and turn a switch and flip on the television. And there we see the world events portrayed for us in the news, and lots of times analyzed. And then this is followed by your local news and your local stations. Now let's take a person who is growing old. It's a little difficult for them to get out. They're very apt to remain there. They say, "Well, I will see the candidate on television." But if that were not available, they would go to the meeting, and the other folks would go. But now, just braving the heat and the possibility of adverse weather and all that sort of thing, as contrasted against the comfort of an easy chair and that television screen — I'm not sure that it can ever come back. Yes, there will be times when you can get crowds, and there'll be times when people will go, because to see a man, a candidate, in person is still far more important than seeing him on the screen of television. Just like people will go out to see a president — they might not go to hear him speak, they may not be interested in hearing him speak, they just want to see the man, see what he looks like, and say, "Well, I saw the president. I was there in the crowd."
Dixon: Okay, so the second person we're going to hear from is Max Sturgis. He was a lifelong friend of Faubus and served as his state purchasing director. Sounds like he okayed all purchases made.
Kellams: Sounds like a pretty powerful position.
Dixon: Incredibly. And then during his last term, Faubus appointed him to the State Highway Commission. That was in '65. And Frank Thomas asked him about a political machine. We know what a machine is. It's powerful backing that you promise, where favors — you grease the wheels — and it isn't always on the up and up. So having a political machine has a negative connotation. But this is what Max Sturgis told Frank Thomas.
Thomas: A lot of the things — I guess those of us that weren't around then hear about Governor Faubus' organization, very often the word "machine" comes up. But then the people I talk to that were there then say, "You can call it what you want, it was good organization." Is that true?
Sturgis: Well, I never heard of the machine. Of course, I heard the accusation made, that the machine was behind him. But frankly, there wasn't nobody behind Faubus but the people. And when the people are behind you, a machine is very rough, but it doesn't make any difference about that. Now, you refer to the machine — you're talking about the utility powers and that. And so far as I know, every one of them was against Faubus in 1954 when he ran. So that, to me, is the answer to your question. There was no machine. It was only the machine of the people. Now, that could be called a machine if you care to, but I do not call him a machine. But if you will sit down and look the men in the eye and talk to him for five minutes, never having seen him or heard of him, you say, "I like that man, he will be my friend."
Dixon: So he had never heard of a machine. But there's a funny story about Max Sturgis.
Kellams: Can we hear it?
Dixon: Yeah. It was the incident of the midnight pay raises. He's appointed in '65 to the Highway Commission, head of the Highway Commission. And then in '66, Faubus decides he's not going to run for reelection. So right before Faubus leaves office and Sturgis resigns, he authorized over $3 million in unauthorized pay raises for the top echelon highway department officials right before he resigned. The subsequent investigation by the Highway Commission sparked a major scandal that embarrassed Faubus and created a deep rift between the governor's office and the Highway Commission. So that didn't come up in the interview. But that happened right before he left office.
Kellams: I think one of the most interesting things, when you think back to the Faubus reign, is he was governor twelve years, twelve consecutive years. Can't be done now. The most you can be is eight. Well, I suppose ten, if you took over in the middle of one you could get nine. But we have it in the Constitution now, you can't go that long. And there's a reason. Well, it is again — but when it was a one-party state, Faubus was powerful beyond belief.
Dixon: Well, let's hear from him one last time. And by the way, this is up on our website on the front page. First, we're going to go with the full Faubus interview, and then we're going to throw in the rest of the elements. There'll be video of him at various courthouses selling his book, talking to people, and then the interviews with his two lieutenants. But here, Frank Thomas asked Faubus what kind of advice he would give to a young person considering a life in politics.
Faubus: Well, politics now is a specialty. It's an art and science all its own, just like engineering or the medical field or many others. And my advice to him would be to get involved on the local level, learn what it means down there to the people that it's all about. We have no need for officials in public offices unless they are to serve the people, and they're not just to serve those who can get out to the governor's office, who have the money to hire a representative or lobbyist. It's for the people out there who have no voice except their own and seldom get a chance to express it. Learn it from the ground up through them, and then learn all that you can about it — the art and science of it — through the media of television, the newsprint, and all of those. Because very often now a candidate is successful by the use of what they call Madison Avenue types of advertising, where they have the money for his employees to go and find out what the people want, and then they paint him in that image, whether he is or not. And that has resulted in some failures on the national level and on the state level in electing people to office. But if a man learns from the ground up what the people's problems are, what causes them to have the opinions which they have about public officials, what causes them to make the requests which they do — if he knows the roots of those, then all of this other education that he can get can fit in with that and qualify him to be a part of it. But I think you've got to have something in addition to that. You've got to have a liking for it. You've got to have a certain knack for it. And sometimes a man just doesn't have it.
Dixon: And again, the full interview can be found at the Pryor Center. We'll have a whole project eventually on Faubus, and we'll probably find some other things. And then, of course, links to these two programs will be there — it'll be a complete package.
Kellams: Excellent.
Dixon: So this gave me an idea.
Kellams: You love ideas.
Dixon: Well, tell me if you like it. What if, for the next — I don't know, I've got to count them up — what if we did a profile of each of the modern governors?
Kellams: When do you consider modern?
Dixon: That we would have in the archives, which would be Francis Cherry. We actually have home movies that his family took of his inauguration.
Kellams: Oh, wow.
Dixon: Back in the '40s.
Kellams: Late '40s, right?
Dixon: Yes.
Kellams: So you'd have Francis Cherry.
Dixon: Sid McMath, Orval Faubus, Rockefeller, Bumpers, Pryor. But then let's throw in Joe Purcell, who was governor for several days, and then Bob Riley, who was governor for just under a week. And then you had Clinton, and then White, and then Clinton again. And then you had
Kellams: Jim Guy Tucker.
Dixon: Well, Jerry Jewell.
Dixon: Oh, that was three days. And then Tucker, Mike Beebe, Mike Huckabee, Mike Huckabee, and then Mike Beebe, and then Asa.
Kellams: Boy, that'll take us up to like Halloween.
Dixon: Well, not quite. But I think we've danced around a few of them and actually done profiles of one or two, but let's do it in order, and that'll get us through the summer. And so we're going to look at what issues shaped their terms and what they dealt with?
Dixon: Through the news coverage on KATV. So whatever news is in there, we're going to touch on it, and whatever interviews and various bits of information we have, both important and mundane.
Randy Dixon is with the David and Barbara Pryor Center for Arkansas Oral and Visual History.
Ozarks at Large transcripts are created on a rush deadline and edited for length and clarity. Copy editors utilize AI tools to review work. KUAF does not publish content created by AI. Please reach out to kuafinfo@uark.edu to report an issue. The audio version is the authoritative record of KUAF programming.
