EMILY FENG, HOST:
When you think of action stars, who do you think of - Schwarzenegger?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE TERMINATOR")
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: (As Terminator) I'll be back.
FENG: Stallone?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "COBRA")
SYLVESTER STALLONE: (As Marion Cobretti) You're a disease. And I'm the cure.
FENG: Or maybe Keanu Reeves.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE MATRIX")
KEANU REEVES: (As Neo) I know kung fu.
FENG: Many women's names might not have come to mind. And if not, shame on you because female action stars have become more and more common, and there are quite a few that deserve a spot in the pantheon of iconic action heroes. On this week's Cineplexity, we talk about the origins of female action stars and their future in cinema. And I'm joined in the studio by two ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producers - Marc Rivers, who usually produces these weekly conversations. Hi, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Emily.
FENG: And Mallory Yu, who also helps oversee our arts coverage. Welcome to you both.
MALLORY YU, BYLINE: Thanks so much. Hi.
FENG: So I just mentioned some male action heroes.
RIVERS: Boo (ph).
FENG: I don't really care about them though. Walk me through some of the iconic female roles over the years. Marc...
RIVERS: Yeah.
FENG: ...Why don't you start?
RIVERS: You know, Hollywood's first, I would say, modern female action hero was Pam Grier in the '70s.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "COFFY")
PAM GRIER: (As Coffy) It was easy for him because he really didn't believe it was coming. But it ain't going to be easy for you because you better believe it's coming.
RIVERS: This was a generational, world historic hottie.
(LAUGHTER)
FENG: Noted.
RIVERS: And she led a number of films in the '70s that were kind of later dubbed Blaxploitation. And in movies like "Coffy" and "Foxy Brown," she gets to take on corrupt politicians, mobsters, the man. You know, she's all about protecting or avenging her community.
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RODNEY GRIER: (As Dawes) What is it you really want?
P GRIER: (As Foxy Brown) Justice.
R GRIER: (As Dawes) For who, your brother?
P GRIER: (As Foxy Brown) Why not? It could be your brother, too, or your sister or your children. I want justice for all of them.
RIVERS: Then you get into the '80s. You got Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in the "Alien" films, right? In particular, 1986's "Aliens," the sequel to Ridley Scott's "Alien."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ALIENS")
SIGOURNEY WEAVER: (As Ripley) I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
RIVERS: Then we go into the '90s. You get someone like Michelle Yeoh.
YU: Well, Michelle Yeoh's kind of getting her start in the '80s too...
RIVERS: True. True true true true.
YU: ...I would argue, with "Yes, Madam," her first big role. But yes, like...
RIVERS: Really breaking through in the '90s.
YU: ...In the '90s, she's really breaking through.
RIVERS: Yeah.
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MICHELLE YEOH: (As character, yelling in non-English language).
FENG: She's doing all of these cop movies and, like...
RIVERS: Oh yeah.
FENG: ...Crime movies set in Hong Kong, no?
YU: Yes, like...
RIVERS: She really, like (ph)...
FENG: Those (ph) girls with guns films that...
RIVERS: Yeah.
FENG: ...I love.
YU: Exactly. Like, and then you've also got Angelina Jolie in the "Lara Croft: Tomb Raider" adaptation.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "[TITLE]")
CHRIS BARRIE: (As Hillary) The lady should be modest.
ANGELINA JOLIE: (As Lara Croft) Yes, a lady should be modest.
FENG: She continues to inspire my outfoot choices when I want to feel tough.
(LAUGHTER)
YU: Exactly, exactly. And she really sort of captured what the, like, '90's and 2000's idea of a really strong, cool, female action hero was.
RIVERS: Yeah, kind of a guys' girl of sorts - like, she's, like, kicking - she's kicking butt, but she's like sexy.
YU: She's really hot.
RIVERS: And she's really hot when she's doing it.
YU: Right.
RIVERS: And then I think you have now in the 2010s and the 2020s - you had the kind of MCU kind of action figure kind of hero...
YU: Yep.
RIVERS: ...You know, embodied by Scarlett Johansson in the "Captain America" movies.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE AVENGERS")
CLARK GREGG: (As Agent Phil Coulson) We need you to come in.
SCARLETT JOHANSSON: (As Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow) Are you kidding? I'm working.
GREGG: (As Agent Phil Coulson) This takes precedence.
JOHANSSON: (As Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow) I'm in the middle of an interrogation. This moron is giving me everything.
RIVERS: We have so many to kind of pick from now.
FENG: Who are your favorites, though? I mean, let's pick favorites.
YU: OK, I mean, I've already talked about Michelle Yeoh. So here, I'm going to give Milla Jovovich her flowers because I love her in "The Fifth Element." You know, she is an action hero who is charged with saving the world, is hugely competent and so smart, but also is curious about the world and soft, able to show fear and cry, while also kicking so much butt and having to do that in mostly a made-up language.
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BRUCE WILLIS: (As Korben Dallas) It was wrong to kiss you. But to wake you up gently...
MILLA JOVOVICH: (As Leeloo, speaking the Divine Language).
WILLIS: (As Korben Dallas) You're right. You're right.
JOVOVICH: (As Leeloo, speaking the Divine Language).
YU: She's sexy, but she's not sexualized, which I really appreciated about that performance in particular.
FENG: Women can have it all.
RIVERS: They can.
FENG: Marc?
RIVERS: So one heroine that really blew me away at a very young age was Carrie-Anne Moss as Trinity in "The Matrix."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE MATRIX")
CARRIE-ANNE MOSS: (As Trinity) I know why you're here, Neo. I know what you've been doing. I know why you hardly sleep.
RIVERS: And Carrie-Anne Moss, she's also like - she's also clearly, like, very sexy...
YU: Yes.
RIVERS: ...And especially (ph) with that black - like, tight, black leather.
FENG: Notably short hair, though - I hadn't yet seen a female action hero...
RIVERS: She's a little...
FENG: ...With short hair.
RIVERS: She's a little androgynous...
FENG: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...In the role, right? And I think that is especially resonant given the Wachowski siblings, given their arc. You know, at the time, they were still identifying as male. They would come to transition later on. But, you know, the way that she is defying gravity, like, literally defying gravity in that movie, it speaks to the ways that she was also defying kind of gender conventions around what an action hero would look like, and the way the film was defying conventions around what a movie could be like. I also got to co-sign Michelle Yeoh. This is a twofer - Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."
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YEOH: (As Yu Shu Lien, speaking Mandarin).
RIVERS: And this is from 2000, Ang Lee's film. The first time they just take off and, like, just take off...
FENG: Flying.
RIVERS: ...In flight, just go flying, like, I think I gasped.
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FENG: What do you look for in a female action star?
YU: I'm kind of looking for characters who are both hard and soft, I guess. Like, I really like seeing a strong woman. You know, she's kind of taken seriously as a peer. But there's also an undercurrent of something else. You know, there's, like, a maternal instinct or, like, a softness that I like seeing. There's, like, depth that you can explore.
FENG: An emotional vulnerability.
RIVERS: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think gender can add texture to a movie that wouldn't necessarily be there if it was, say, a Bruce Willis film. I recently watched Tarantino's "Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair." It's kind of parts one and two put in one package, and it had a nationwide release last year.
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UMA THURMAN: (As The Bride) When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.
RIVERS: And watching it in that form, it really struck me the way this was a film - or this was a saga about men abusing women across time, across different continents, in different ways, trying to control women. And that just gains a kind of extra textual resonance, given that - the fact this is a Miramax production, Harvey Weinstein's production company...
FENG: Oh, right.
RIVERS: ...You know, Uma Thurman having gone through what she's gone through in the industry. The movie becomes this triumph of a woman who has been abused and has been silenced, you know, buried alive even, but, like, you know, nevertheless, she persisted.
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THURMAN: (As The Bride) I roared. I rampaged, and I got bloody satisfaction.
RIVERS: You just don't get all of those extra, like, nuances and resonances if it's just, you know, Keanu Reeves doing all that.
YU: Right.
RIVERS: Like, it matters that it is Uma Thurman's, and ergo The Bride's, triumph in this (inaudible).
YU: Right, and also seeing, like, the various female villains in that movie too...
RIVERS: Yes. Yeah.
YU: ...And sort of the ways in which women might be complicit with that abuse in reaction to or in complicity with patriarchy.
FENG: What is the future of the female action star?
RIVERS: What I hope the future of the female action star is is more opportunities for women kind of in middle age to be the action hero. I mean, you see - like, you see how Liam Neeson and Denzel Washington, Keanu Reeves, they're allowed to kick butt way into their 50s, 60s, 70s. And you don't really see as many opportunities like that for women.
YU: Yeah.
RIVERS: And I think someone like Viola Davis, in particular, really showed that she could equip herself more than adequately to be an action hero. She was great in this underseen film, 2022's "The Woman King," where she's the leader of this all-female army in 19th century West Africa.
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VIOLA DAVIS: (As Nanisca) I offer you a choice - fight or we die.
RIVERS: And - you know, and this is the kind of film where it's proof that representation and inclusivity is good for art because I've seen enough "Gladiators" and "Bravehearts" to last a lifetime. I do not need to see any more of that kind of thing.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: "The Woman King" felt new. It felt fresh, and that freshness was thrilling. And I go to the movies to be thrilled. So I want more "Woman Kings" and fewer "Equalizers" and "Gladiators." I've had enough of those.
YU: One of the other things I want to see, and we kind of got this with the character Furiosa, who's played by Charlize Theron in the "Mad Max: Fury Road" movie...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MAD MAX: FURY ROAD")
CHARLIZE THERON: (As Imperator Furiosa) You want to get through this? Do as I say.
YU: ...Where she's a disabled character, and that disability is part of her character, but it's not the whole story. And it's really cool to kind of see the ways in which her character uses that disability in action sequences. So I want to see more disabled action heroes and creativity in how that person's or actor's disability informs the way they move and fight. I think it would be really cool to see.
FENG: That was NPR's Mallory Yu and Marc Rivers. Thank you for joining us.
YU: Always a pleasure.
RIVERS: My pleasure.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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