Matthew Moore: Last week, the majority of the Arkansas Educational Television Commission voted to disaffiliate from PBS, effective July 1. That means that all programming provided by PBS will no longer be available over the airwaves for Arkansans. Another part of that decision was to change their name from Arkansas PBS to Arkansas TV.
Carlton Wing is the executive director of Arkansas TV. We spoke yesterday over zoom. He says he values public media and that we should have higher expectations for both public television and public radio.
Carlton Wing: We should expect different things out of public media when it comes to journalism. We should expect to be informed, not to be inflamed. And I think we can set the standard for what true journalism actually is. We should be able to ask the right questions and not have biases. Just tell the truth. We expect our public media viewers to want to be informed. And if you're going to be informed, that means you're going to spend a little bit more time with it than with a fifteen second sound bite that you're going to get on commercial television. That's part of our mission. That's part of our place in the spectrum of television offerings and in radio offerings, is we give you something to think about.
Moore: Carlton, you became the executive director in September, what was then called Arkansas PBS. How soon after your arrival did the talks or maybe the rumblings of disaffiliating with PBS start to begin?
Wing: Well, I know talks were taking place even before I got here. Just because people are looking for what is our financial reality when you take away two and a half million dollars out of your annual budget, which accounts for about 20% of our overall budget, but over 30% of the TV portion of our budget. That's huge. And so we were able to do for the first year, just as a stop gap measure, the station cut one million dollars out of its own internal budget that included things like capital expenditures and things like that.
The foundation was able to come up and double what they normally contribute to the station and make up for that other million and a half dollars. And so that's what we were able to do just to get through this current fiscal year that we're in, paying the dues that we're paying right now. But as we look forward and forecast, that's no business plan, that's not a structure that we can follow year in and year out. And so we had to think, okay, what can we do? And so we began poring over the numbers almost immediately upon my arrival to see what are our options, what availabilities do we have? And it became very clear as we went through week after week, going through numbers backwards and forwards in any way that we could. This is a financially unsustainable path. We will be bankrupt by the spring of 2028 if we continue to follow this path of paying two and a half million dollars to PBS for their annual dues.
Moore: Were there any discussions with PBS about negotiating the pricing of programming? I know we had similar cuts. I mean, we were looking at nearly 20% of our budget being cut due to federal funding. We were able to have conversations with NPR to talk about repricing and thinking about what our content costs and whether we can make changes. Was that the same for you all at PBS?
Wing: Conversations had taken place prior to my arrival, and conversations since have shown to this point. There has been no budget. Uh, one of the things that we offered also was, could we buy the programs that we can afford, might not be able to afford the whole lineup? Could we be able to, for instance? Obviously, the first thing I'd love to have is PBS kids. Um, but so far, no budging on that either.
They have a business model. And to be fair, and I think this is an important, uh, point as well, is that PBS is a private non-profit company, and they have every right to structure their business the way they need to, to financially survive. Their structure right now does not allow for menu pricing, and that's a choice that they make. And they have every right to make that. But that would certainly help us to be able to afford some of the most valued PBS content.
Moore: That's interesting. So you wouldn't be able to just buy, say, Daniel Tiger and not pay for NewsHour, for example.
Wing: Correct. You have to pay for it all. You have access to it all. But to this point, we've not been able to get kind of a menu option.
Moore: You recently spoke with Bill Bowden with the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, and you said that 5½% of your programming is local. You know, you're planning on making this change July 1. How do you intend to make up that other 94½% ?
Wing: Yeah, that's a great question. And that was one of the first things when I got here, I was like, how much of what we're doing is local Arkansas content? And I was stunned to find out it was just 5½%. We've become so dependent on national programming over the years, and so we certainly want to reverse that. It's not something that we're going to be able to do overnight. But there are other national providers that will be providing content very similar to what you have seen on or from PBS.
They'll be documentaries with different names. There will be British dramas with different names. There will be children's programming with different names as well. We'll follow almost identically the block of styles of programming during your different dayparts, but we will have a lot of national programming through other providers that will also be massively increasing our local content as well to be able to tell the story of Arkansas. And that's been one thing that both internally, our employees here and externally, the taxpayers, the citizens of Arkansas, they want to hear more things about our state. This is what Arkansas Public Television should be all about.
Moore: How will this rebranding impact staffing for you guys?
Wing: We need everybody we’ve got to be able to tell the story of Arkansas. And so we have been one of the few PBS stations that did not go through any rounds of layoffs. And so we are that is our goal is to be able to keep our crew intact, because we need all hands on deck to be able to accomplish this mission.
Moore: Do you anticipate hiring?
Wing: We yeah, we hope so. It might be more in the terms of freelance, uh, at this point, but we do anticipate as we go along, we're going to need more and more storytellers to be able to accomplish the mission.
Moore: Many people's first introduction to PBS programming is probably at childhood, whether it was programming like Mister Rogers, Arthur, which was a favorite of mine as a kid, or Daniel Tiger. I suspect the kids programming is a major loss with this decision.
Wing: Yeah, it is. And I'm sad to see it go. I would love it if PBS would make that available. Uh, because that is something that we have grown up with. I grew up here in central Arkansas with the same titles as well. And, uh, hopeful that something could happen down the road. But in the meantime, there are a lot of other quality…That's one of the great things about being in twenty twenty five now, as opposed to nineteen sixty six, when this station first began. There are a lot of independent producers and a lot of producers who have been very successful in other realms, in other delivery methods. Now that wouldn't have ever had a chance, you know, forty and fifty years ago, just because of the technology costs that were so significant back then that are a lot less now. Creative storytellers are being rewarded.
Moore: I'm speaking with Carlton Wing, the executive director of Arkansas TV, previously known as Arkansas PBS.
In Alabama there was a decision similar to what? To what you made here in Arkansas that you were thinking about Disaffiliating. I think in Alabama they actually had started the process of doing it. And donors and people who were supporters of the PBS stations there pushed back, and they decided against disaffiliating. Is that something that could happen here in Arkansas?
Wing: Well, what Alabama was doing, actually, they had had a meeting in which one of their commission members had made a motion to do so, but that didn't even get a second at that time. But it brought up the topic and they were debating, are they going to pay their current bill for this current fiscal year that they're in, which financially, you're kind of obligated to do. And that was one of the things also that came up in our commission meeting. We have to let the network know one hundred and eighty days in advance if we intend to disaffiliate, or else we are on the hook for the next fiscal year. And we don't know what those dues are even yet at this point. And so that would just be financially irresponsible to sign a contract. And we don't know what the figure is going to be at the other end of that contract. Now, if you say about the future, if PBS were to come back with something that is financially responsible that we can afford, we're certainly willing to talk. This is strictly a financial decision. If they're if the numbers can work out, great. But at this point, they. that we are bleeding about two and a quarter million dollars a year at the current rate, and we can't afford to stay with that much longer. As I mentioned, we would be bankrupt by the spring of ‘28.
Moore: Public media is something that is not a very financially viable entity. I think that's fair to say, right? I don't know that that's necessarily the goal of public media is to be financially viable, necessarily. Not to say that it shouldn't be, uh, it shouldn't be bleeding money. Of course not. But I wonder if there is a conversation, perhaps at the legislative level. I know as a former legislator yourself, is there a conversation that could be had or ought to be had to think about? Maybe putting more money into public television is worth it in the long run?
Wing: Well, you first have to identify why does public media exist when it started, at least on the television side, when it started in 1966 here in Arkansas, public media existed because there were only three other television stations that anybody could watch, period. We were the fourth. Now, what has happened since then is hundreds of television stations exist now, and an infinite number of media sources are available on the internet. And so you have to say, okay, is it still something that the taxpayers should still fund in this environment here in 2025? We say yes, because there are things that we do that commercial television doesn't, and in many cases can't. We can tell the stories that are not available elsewhere. We can target certain communities who aren't getting the attention they otherwise should, because it's not financially viable in the commercial world. But it's important in the public world.
We can focus on education, which is the absolute center of everything that we do. I mean, we are still. The Arkansas Educational Television Commission is our official title. We were doing business, as for the last five years, PBS Arkansas. And now we are doing business as Arkansas TV. But education is at the core of everything that we do, and that's what makes public television, public media viable. And that's why legislative bodies are willing to appropriate funds to make sure these messages get heard.
For us, we also have the added benefit of we have ten towers across the state, and we are the primary source of all of your emergency weather alerts and your Amber alerts as well. And we provide professional development education for our teachers across the state. Those are some essential services that comes through this building. That's why public media is needed. So that's the first thing we have to do is explain why are we spending any tax dollars on this? Now, if we talk about an increase, we already get, uh, a six million dollars appropriated, just under six million dollar appropriation through the state of Arkansas for the television side of what we do. Um, and so those discussions are taking place as why do we need to continue to do that? And if you follow the legislature, in past years, those budget appropriations have gone to the very brink of not getting funded at all. And if that happens, public media, public television is done in Arkansas. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm here, is to be able to help restore that mission and an understanding of why we need public television in Arkansas. And that's one of the reasons why the commission made the vote that they did this past week was because if we go bankrupt, public television's done. And that's the track that we were on. It would take place in just two years.
Moore: I've seen a lot of social media, many people who have said they're planning on ending their donations to Arkansas TV due to this decision. What would you say to folks to convince them that it's worth continuing to make a donation to public television in Arkansas, despite the removal of PBS programming.
Wing: Yeah, well, I think, you know, the main thing is, first we have to acknowledge change is hard. Uh, none of us likes change. And we get that. And change happens all through life. That's the one consistent thing in life is that we're going to have to endure some change. This change was financially necessary for us, but it does give us an opportunity to get back to the core mission of what we do. Public television is bigger than any single network, and just because we have gotten used to seeing certain programs that we know and love, and those programs, by the way, are still available via the PBS Passport app. PBS kids is free through the apps.
And a big number of our viewers across the state of Arkansas have been accessing those online anyway, and not even going through our station to get that content. So that's the first thing is that that content is still available, but this is an opportunity to invest in public television for all of the reasons why we exist. We need the support of viewers like you. As we say, to keep that mission going along so that public television can survive, so that it can reach those communities that are underserved and need those voices so that our towers can continue to, uh, protect our state with the emergency alerts from our weather and our Amber alerts as well. This is a time to support public media.
Moore: I hear you talk about the changes. And, you know, it's something that's very front of mind for me, as well as someone who works in public radio. I hear people say all the time, why radio? Why not podcast? Why not move to video? Why not do these other things? And I think for me, it's a constant reminder that it's available to you whether or not you can afford it. And I think that's something that's really consequential with broadcast in general, is that whether or not you can afford internet access on a regular basis, whether or not you can afford to, you know, buy a stick to put in your TV to make sure that you have access to, um, you know, over the top programming that you could get PBS on that broadcast. Public TV is always there.
What do you say to people who would make that argument?
Wing: Yeah. Well, and you talk about that's a very good point because we have so much new technology that is available right now. Why do we still have TV and radio? I'll tell you another reason that gets overlooked a lot is when we do have dire emergencies and power outages, and we need messages to get out to the people. The number one way is the towers that are on with our radio and television stations. That is the most stable source of getting information out to the people, because broadband will be out. Satellites can be out. We are much more stable in an emergency situation.
Moore: What happens if this doesn't work?
Wing: Yeah. Well, that's one of the reasons why we had to make the change. That change that we did because we were headed towards a path where we're shutting down in two years. And so what this does is it gives us an extension of time. If you saw the charts that were there, it gives us more time to be able to turn this aircraft carrier that's been going in the same direction for quite some time. This gives us more time to make the necessary adjustments so that Arkansas Public Television can last for years and years to come.
Moore: Carlton Wing is the executive director of Arkansas TV, previously known as Arkansas PBS. Ozarks at Large reached out to PBS for comment on the state commission's decision. They provided a comment that says, in part, that this is a blow to Arkansans and that it goes against the will of Arkansas viewers. They provided findings from a 2025 survey of Arkansans that showed 78% of Arkansans, including nearly 70% of Republicans in the state, agree that PBS kids is the most trusted educational children's media brand.
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