Ellen Jovin loves grammar so much that she's written books like "Rebel with a Clause." She loves it so much that she often sets up a grammar table in public to invite anybody who wants to talk about grammar. She's taken that table to all 50 states, and her husband, Brandt Johnson, has created a documentary, also called "Rebel with a Clause," about those grammar table conversations. The movie will be screened at the Fayetteville Public Library Saturday afternoon at 1 in a special partnership with the Hot Springs Documentary Festival.
Jovin: But I just want to make very clear, when I plop down a grammar advice stand, I did not try to coerce people into coming near me. I want them to be totally willing grammar collaborators.
Kellams: What were the first grammar collaborators like?
Jovin: The first one, I think, was either an editor himself or connected to an editor, and he had multiple questions. He came up within 30 seconds of my propping up the sign. I liked the couple who came up who had to resolve how to form the plural of a surname. The husband had it wrong and the wife had it right.
Kellams: Was it a surname that ended in an S?
Jovin: It wasn't, it was simpler. It was just, you know, like, "Another fun day for the Robinsons" or something like that. So he had written it with an apostrophe S, she thought there shouldn't be one.
Kellams: She was right.
Jovin: I know.
Kellams: So, what are the interactions like? If you don't coerce and people just come up, it sounds like it's a genteel sort of civilized conversation.
Jovin: This is street grammar. There are many genteel discussions, but that's not really the vibe of it. Often I'm sitting pretty close to a trash can with cars zooming by on the street, trash on the ground. It's not genteel. Everyone uses language and everyone has curiosity about words, and so they may come up with questions about pronunciation or punctuation or things that aren't strictly grammar, but just people love thinking about how they use words and love asking about things. They want to know if the person that's been telling them they're wrong is actually right, and often the person isn't.
Kellams: Brandt, when did you realize, "Oh, this is good for a film"?
Johnson: I think pretty early I realized it. Ellen plopped her grammar table down for the first time in September 2018, and I would go regularly with her and sit at a park bench nearby and just take in the grammar action. And I started thinking pretty soon this is something I need to start filming. And I actually started filming in December of 2018.
Kellams: Did bringing a camera to the conversation change any dynamics?
Johnson: That was something that I was really concerned about, and Ellen was too. What was happening without my tech and filming and all that stuff was, seemed so natural and so connected, and I didn't want to disturb that with tech stuff. And so I thought, well, maybe I shouldn't, and we just leave it, let it be what it is. But we decided it was worth the risk, and it turned out that that tech stuff receded into the background and people were able to really just be there and connect with Ellen and have moments that were just as natural.
Kellams: Ellen, grammar, language can sometimes be something people are sheepish about. They don't want to be incorrect, they don't want to be thought of as maybe less intelligent or less cultured. I think part of what you want to do here is, let's talk about these things.
Jovin: Yeah, I really want to answer the questions that people ask. So if they want to check whether they're being corrected correctly, that's one service that I offer. But we use language in all different ways at all different levels, from pillow talk to hanging out with our friends to what we do at work to what we do in formal writing. There's a whole range, and I think sometimes people imagine the correct stuff is in one jar somewhere. And it's really, I think of grammar as possibility and not constraint. So understanding the anatomy of language is empowering to me. I love having that knowledge. It's also, by the way, entry into other languages, it helps you acquire others, which is great. So I think it's just fun. It's so central to what, like, what are we doing now? We're having a conversation. It's central to everything we're doing all day long, probably.
Kellams: Would there be questions or conversations about rules like the one for "fewer" and "less"?
Jovin: Americans are really bent out of shape about that one. I think the rule is not as strict as people think. And a good example I like is, what would you say in the sentence, "Please write an answer 25 words or ___"? Most people when they're speaking would say "less," but when I asked that question, people sometimes say "fewer." And it's really not that strict a distinction. You can look up the usage note in Merriam-Webster, and it supports that "less" has been used with what are known as countable nouns for centuries.
Kellams: I see. I would think, since it's something you can count, it would be, oh no, that would be "fewer," wouldn't it, because "less" is an amount. Are these the sorts of conversations that take place?
Jovin: Absolutely. And there's some that make people really indignant. I mean, people do get indignant about "fewer" and "less." They get indignant about ending with prepositions. They get indignant about splitting infinitives.
Kellams: I understand that grammar and punctuation can exist, ideally, for better understanding of what you're trying to say, but with "fewer" and "less," or prepositions at the end, that usually almost never really mars understanding if it's going against what is the traditional rule, right?
Jovin: Yes. Well, first, the traditional rules are often not what people think they are. I mean, there are some things I was taught in school that I don't abide by now. I do end sentences in prepositions. And if anyone is listening to that and is indignant, please don't let it stop you from coming to the movie. There's great content on it, right, Brandt?
Johnson: There is.
Jovin: There's great preposition content. I mean, you haven't seen that many movies with great preposition content, probably. I forgot the question now.
Kellams: If I end a sentence with a preposition, it doesn't create misunderstanding generally.
Jovin: There are things that people obsess about that, first of all, aren't wrong to begin with. There are things that people obsess about that maybe a reader or listener could get past and understand. But if you sharpen it, it'll be easier to understand, and I think people underestimate the value of reducing the friction in what they say and write. And then lastly, there's full-on art. In writing, in particular, if you really have control of your sentences, it doesn't have to be the name of everything, but if you understand the anatomy, it can really give you power to control how you share your ideas and facts and whatever. And it's actually really beautiful.
Kellams: When you're editing and putting it together, do you think, "Well, OK, that's enough propositional content, maybe we should be talking about, we don't have enough about independent clauses or semicolons"?
Johnson: It was much more fluid than that, I would say, Kyle. I had 400 hours of footage and it's an 86-minute film, and going through all of that was really a process of having the arc of the film and what was happening at the table reveal itself as I went, as I edited. I didn't really have a very structured sort of approach, like, "OK, there needs to be more of this or that." More people spoke about some stuff at the table than other stuff, and that really guided that sort of balance.
Kellams: How did you know when you were done, when it was ready?
Johnson: I still don't know. I am naturally very iterative. So I edited for six years, and it was a process of trying and getting close and trying some other direction, or letting it sit for a bit and seeing how it felt later. Seeing it with an audience was another. When we started actually screening it, I was seeing lots of stuff, and I went back into editing and said, "OK, so seeing responses of audiences in this moment and this moment, I want to trim this or expand this," and just really subtle tweaking. So yeah, I was joking that I'm not tweaking, I was, it was only half joking that I'm not sure I'm done yet.
Jovin: So much faster to write the book. I'm just saying, really, a lot faster.
Kellams: If there's ever going to be a movie that needs six years-plus for editing, it's one that's about language and grammar, right?
Johnson: That's a good point. I hadn't really thought of it that way.
Johnson: Thank you, Kyle.
Jovin: Actually, we've been, he's been working on captions, and that's a whole other thing. Every caption has to be edited really carefully.
Johnson: The film has over 2,300 captions.
Kellams: You've been to all 50 states with the table, you've written the books, you've had the screenings. Are there differences geographically with the questions or conversations? Is something in Bangor, Maine, more likely to come up than, say, El Segundo, Arkansas? Seems like a really great place to talk about grammar.
Jovin: Actually, there is a scene, one of my favorite scenes from the movie, that's from Little Rock. I find it absolutely hilarious, but I'm not going to say, no spoilers.
Johnson: With respect to regional differences, it makes me think of, what is really the opposite of that question is the similarities. That one thing really strikes me, is that this film, I intended it to be entertaining. It is a grammar road trip docucomedy, it is all of that, it is a rollicking good time, but at its heart it's about human connection. It's about reaching people across differences in a divided time. And that's what we saw. The human connection at the grammar table was consistent across 50 states. People wanted to connect, and they were from whatever background, whatever political leaning, whatever, and they were there and having a moment with Ellen at the table in a human way.
Kellams: Do either or both of you have a favorite punctuation?
Jovin: I probably like the comma the most, if I have to pick. But what I like in my life is variety, and that's what I think knowing about grammar gives you, the variety of all kinds of options. You're not channeling into the one path you feel confident about.
Johnson: I can't top that answer.
Kellams: Can we agree that "y'all" is a word?
Jovin: Absolutely, 100%, that is covered in the movie. We can't say more.
Johnson: Okay, yes, no spoilers!
Jovin: No spoilers on that, but that figures prominently in the film.
Kellams: I have been accused, charged with overuse of the ellipsis. Ellipses. I can't even say it correctly.
Kellams: I just know, if you're overusing the ellipsis, I would really like to see that, what you're writing about, because we're actually, we both love math, so we would be into it.
Johnson: All right, yes, there's a scene in the film about this very issue.
Kellams: That's ideal. Okay, yeah, see, that was just a forward promote.
Jovin: So you've been accused of overusing them. Do you send emails where they have multiple ellipses?
Jovin: I do. And then in my scripts for the program, which are not for public consumption, they're for me, I use them much more often than a semicolon or a comma, because it lets me know, "Oh, when I wrote this, I wanted myself to pause here." But I've had coworkers that say, "No, you're way overusing them, you're exploiting them."
Jovin: Aren't you allowed to do what you want?
Kellams: Well, yeah, I'm still doing it.
Johnson: Well, if the audience is you, and it communicates to you what you would like it to communicate while you're in the midst of saying what you're saying on air, and you want to have a sense of that moment, I'm a huge fan. It could be a squiggly dot, dot, crosshatch, but it means to you, "That's what I need in that moment," because that signals this, I love it.
Kellams: I know you've been to Arkansas, but I can't wait for you both to be here in Northwest Arkansas. I think we're going to have a very entertained audience ready to talk.
Johnson: We can't wait.
Jovin: Are we going to see you? Oh, yeah, we're going to see you for the Q&A.
Kellams: I'm the moderator.
Jovin: That's what, sorry, I just got scared for a moment that we wouldn't see you, because I have grown attached to you already.
Jovin: It's going to be a big grammar party. I'm really looking forward to it.
Kellams: Yes, thank you so much. I mean, is it public radio if you don't have a big grammar party?
Jovin: I don't think so.
Ellen Jovin and Brandt Johnson are the people behind the documentary "Rebel with a Clause." It will be shown Saturday afternoon at 1 p.m. at the Fayetteville Public Library, followed by a Q&A withKyle Kellams.
Ozarks at Large transcripts are created on a rush deadline and edited for length and clarity. Copy editors utilize AI tools to review work. KUAF does not publish content created by AI. Please reach out to kuafinfo@uark.edu to report an issue. The audio version is the authoritative record of KUAF programming.
