This is Ozarks at Large. I'm Matthew Moore.
Leon Keer is an internationally renowned street artist and muralist whose work can be found across Europe, Asia, the Middle East — and yes, even Fayetteville. Last week, the city of Fayetteville invited me to host a conversation with Leon in the Walker Community Room at the Fayetteville Public Library. We'll play portions of that conversation both today and tomorrow.
We'll start with my first question to Leon: what's his experience of Fayetteville been so far?
Leon Keer: Well, mostly I'm up there, so the interaction with people is quite difficult. But I got a lot of people passing by with the car and yelling like, oh, great work and stuff. So that's nice. And of course, when I first went up and I looked around, I saw a lot of hills and trees and nature and said, oh, wow, this is a beautiful view from here. So yeah, it feels very warm and welcome and a nice environment to work in.
Moore: It's a perspective of the city that I don't think very many of us, at least willingly, would take — to be that high up in a crane and a lift to be able to see that. What kind of perspective does that give you on the city itself? You may have had some presuppositions coming in. How has that changed, being 30, 40, 50 feet up in the air doing your work?
Keer: Well, for me, it feels a little bit solitary so that you can soak in some kind of energy of this particular city just by yourself, with nobody else around you. So that feels like you can really soak in this kind of energy instead of being distorted by anything else.
Moore: I want to start our conversation tonight a little bit with some personal stuff about you, if we can. Is there a childhood memory of seeing public art, perhaps for the first time, that really sticks out to you?
Keer: Oh, well, when I grew up in a very small town in the Netherlands, I wasn't that busy with art, but mostly busy surviving into the kind of group of friends I had or wanted to have. But that was already hard. So I wasn't that much acquainted with art in general. We didn’t go to any museums. So not really special.
Moore: That's really fascinating to think about. The kind of work you do and the scale at which you do it — thinking about your childhood experience. What was your relationship to drawing and painting and doing artwork as a kid?
Keer: For me, it was a kind of way of getting back from all the worries. Just having my A4 paper and pencil, working on some architecture or whatever comes to mind. So I didn’t have to think about other stuff around me. It was also quite solitary.
Moore: It’s interesting, as you talk about that, that it was a way for you to be solitary. You talk about being up there, soaking it all in. Do you find that sort of work — the art, being in a space way up high working on this — as a bit of a meditation or a way to find tranquility in a busy environment?
Keer: Yeah, for sure. Mostly we have some music on, but never headphones because I want to be aware of what is happening around me. I can work 16 hours on such a day because you get into this kind of zone, into this vibe where you’re completely lost. Sometimes you go down from the lift and you see your work and you say, oh, okay, that’s not where I was, but it looks perfect. That’s the kind of surprising act I always like.
Moore: You're surprised by your own work?
Keer: Well, not always, because I know what I can achieve with my techniques and my work. But sometimes I’m even surprised by what I did. Perhaps the quantity of how much I accomplished, but also the quality. The way it is preserved on that particular spot. Because mostly I’m working on that location and the wall is one meter in front of me, but my head is already on that viewpoint. So I have to be constantly aware and switch between what I can do with my body and with the art itself, and then switch back while I’m up there to see how it looks from that one particular viewpoint. When I stand there, I see, okay, that’s perfect. But you’re not always fully aware of that when you’re up there.
Moore: Was there an adult in your life who encouraged you to pursue art?
Keer: Yeah. Well, I had an uncle who just passed, by the way. But he was very enthusiastic. I think he saw some way of how I was thinking about being creative, and he took me to ballet and some music performances. Probably he was the most aware of what I could achieve in my art.
Moore: Did you know that you could do this as a kid? There’s a stereotype in America that adults ask kindergartners what they want to be when they grow up. For me, I didn’t know you could be a public radio reporter when I was five or six years old. Did you know you could be an artist at that age?
Keer: Well, I didn’t know actually what an artist does or what he has to do. I was never aware of what an artist can do. Most of it is like, I like to do what I do now. If it’s called an artist, it’s okay by me. But if they call me an accountant, it’s also fine by me. I just like what I do.
Moore: Much of your work hinges on perspective and orientation. Some of your work has an anamorphic perspective. Others have an augmented reality component. Why is that important to you as a creator?
Keer: I like to envision everything in 3D. After I did 3D perspective techniques — anamorphic techniques, perspective — I even worked with different strings and nine-point perspectives. Very complicated. For me, it feels like a nice combination to have mathematical techniques combined with my skills in paint. After that, I thought, okay, maybe I can have this other dimension as well. I incorporated it with a friend of mine who is very good at making 3D animations. So if you scan some works, you can see an extra layer appear on top of the work on your screen. That’s the augmented reality. Then it becomes even more 3D. So it feels like I’ve been constantly working on this extra layer of 3D.
Moore: How many bad paintings did you have before you had one you were proud to show other people?
Keer: That’s the case in public art. Whenever you make something, it’s always visible, especially if people make photos of it. But I’m always happy with what I do. It’s never wrong. If you make some mistakes, I think, okay, next time I will do better. That’s why I see every painting I make as good. It’s a learning lane, but every next painting is even better.
Moore: Before you really started to do public art, when did it manifest that a piece of paper wasn’t a big enough canvas for you?
Keer: I think that’s about thinking big. You take on bigger materials, bigger brushes, and you think, oh, I can’t work on this small scale with this big brush. So you make it bigger and bigger. You notice people are more impressed if you are working on a large scale. That creates conversation, especially in public art. If you are there, people are talking about your art. That’s always nice as an artist, that people recognize your art and talk about it. Even from those discussions, your art can grow.
Moore: Is it important to you to think about how people perceive your art?
Keer: Yeah, probably. It’s not that I think about it directly, like I have to make it for others. Maybe it comes from my youth, that I didn’t get much attention when I was a kid. Now I want more attention for my art.
Moore: I talk on the radio for a living. I can empathize with that. Let’s talk logistics. What does it look like to pitch a mural of this size to a city?
Keer: For me, it feels like I’m now in a luxury position, that I have a lot of people around me who know what I do. They pitch the work for me. That’s comfortable. I always say that if the people I’m collaborating with are pitching my work, they have to stand for the artist’s viewpoint. A lot of marketing companies want to have a say, thinking about what the client or city needs. But I like conversations with people who are sure about art and can translate that to clients or cities.
But when I was beginning, I did it all by myself. I had to pitch works. That’s always a hassle, because in public art everybody wants to have a say. If a city has 20 people who want input, it’s difficult to express your art. Nowadays people know me and what I can do, so they trust me. That feels honorable.
Moore: When you think about the relationship you have with your team, the people pitching and negotiating for you — how do they know how to best articulate your viewpoint?
Keer: I think you have to ask the organization too. They investigate the artist and what they want to say in their art. That helps with trying to stand back, because I like to do what I do best: be up in the lift and paint.
Moore: And having an accountant who can take care of those things for you is probably helpful too, right?
Keer: Yeah.
Moore: How do you stay organized when you’re in the lift or crane, in the middle of a project? How do you keep track of where you are and what you still have left to do?
Keer: I always take into account that if it takes eight days, it has to be finished in eight days. If it’s two weeks, then I’ll add more details. I have my assistant next to me, who is very good at organizing and telling me what we can do first and next. That’s very helpful. I get lost in details too much, and then I lose track of time. That’s why I probably work 16 hours a day if I can. But I don’t think that’s bad for being an artist.
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