I’m Matthew Moore. Street artist Leon Keer is in Fayetteville for just a bit longer, working on his second mural, this one on the Town Center parking deck on the corner of East Avenue and Rock Street.
Last week, Leon joined me in the Walker Community Room at the Fayetteville Public Library to discuss his work. We played a portion of that conversation on yesterday’s show. We’ll play more of that interview today.
Moore: Do you take criticism? Well, I mean, like you’ve got an assistant up there with you. You’ve got someone there kind of keeping you in check. I imagine your relationship with them has to be pretty intimate.
Leon Keer: Yeah, well, I can have good critics to watch my art, but I know what I do. Of course I do. Sometimes also some messages in my art, and that can be a little bit tricky because you have this kind of discussion. But according to my specialty, my techniques, I think I’m the most critical to myself. I don’t think there will be any chance that people can say, oh, you have to do this better, or you can draw better lines or something.
Moore: Yeah. Thinking about the commentary that your art does, whether we like it or not, all public art is political. Right? Just the idea that being able to be in a space where public art exists is a statement of politics. How do you think about that in your context as an artist, whether you’re making statements through your art or just the act of creating art in a space? How do you think about the commentary that your work can produce in that way?
Keer: Well, I have two different kinds of ways of making my art, creating my art. When I’m in a studio, I mostly don’t think about what other people can say because it’s not public. So I can embrace more my own opinion towards this art form in my studio.
But if I’m out there, for example at a public place like this, I take into account that I don’t want to offend anybody or make too much provocation towards anybody, because I’m here for two weeks and then I leave the city, I leave the country, and then people got stuck with art which they don’t like. That feels a little bit silly to do. Of course you can have this kind of openness and having a spark of conversation towards that kind of art, because that’s what art does. But some provocative art, to place that somewhere in a public space, that’s not my thing.
Moore: Yeah. One critique I’ve seen about you being selected as the artist for these two large-scale murals here in Fayetteville is not necessarily directed at you, but it’s the comment of, why wasn’t a local artist selected for this project? How do you respond to those kinds of comments when you hear people saying, not necessarily you, but perhaps to the city, to say, well, why didn’t they pick someone local?
Keer: I get these kinds of comments often. If you are in a foreign country or in a city which you aren’t common with. But for me, it feels like if you go to a concert and you have a local band playing, maybe a couple of hundred people, and then Iron Maiden comes in, you think, oh wow. So that attracts a lot of people. So it’s a difference about quality as well.
So yeah, it’s not that I want to have like, okay, there are not so many good local artists. But I have a name. I can create my art very, very well. And yeah, so I think it’s important to have this kind of art that is also known by a lot of people around in the world. Like if you have an artist from Portugal who makes different colors than an artist from Mexico, they will bring another kind of culture inside the city. That will also attract other people.
Moore: And yeah, a few months ago, I did an interview with Joanna here, the public arts director. And one of the things that she said—I kind of asked a similar question to her—was this idea that art, artisan, an invasive species. And this idea that all art coming into a place is good art and betters the community.
How do you think about the impact of your art, whether it’s here or any other place that you go in for a moment, make the art and leave? How do you think about how that impacts the community, impacts the children who see it, impacts folks who—I mean, as you point out, you didn’t interact with public art as a kid. How do you think about how your work can inspire and create a certain idea in folks that they didn’t know that they had?
Keer: Well, I’ve seen that a lot happen already, also here, but also in other cities. You’re up there and then people meet each other in front of the wall. They have a conversation about the piece, but they have never seen each other. They are talking about the work itself. It’s a way of meeting for locals who are living here. That gives some nice examples.
I’ve also had a lot of conversations when I’m in a bar. Someone says, oh, you’re the artist. I talked to the other guy about it, but I liked the other art better. So you have a conversation going on about public art in general. That’s nice. Some people like it, some people not, and some people like the other one better. That’s why I also feel there has to be a lot of differences in art forms.
For example, in my city in Utrecht in the Netherlands, there’s one artist who’s doing all the murals and they all look the same. I will say, no, bring in other artists from other cities, from other countries, and then you have another kind of conversation and other feel about other cultures as well.
Moore: It’s like a garden, right? You want a variety of plants, a variety of things to look at, to see how they interact with one another, how they inform one another. Do you see that? I mean, as you were coming here to the city, did you take a look at other art that was here and see how your art can contrast or complement that art?
Keer: Well, it’s always when I travel. When I have to create a mural like this, I like to have these conversations firsthand. Not by filling in a sketch, okay, this could be an idea for the city. But I like to have a conversation. What is going on in the city? What can be something extra? What can I do for the people living in the city, or for the city itself?
Obviously that’s not always possible because I travel from far, but I always look up on the internet, what are issues, what are people worrying about? I try to put that into my work as well.
Moore: There’s a quote of yours from a German publication where you say every street art piece is unique and belongs to the street and its residents. Can you talk more about your relationship with your public art? And I know that there’s this idea with art that there’s a separation, right, between the object and the artist. There’s this idea that once the object is completed, it no longer belongs to the artist. Do you feel that way, that once you’ve completed a piece of work, that it’s no longer yours?
Keer: Always. Yeah, always. Also with my paintings in the studio, they just go out into the galleries or art shows and it’s already gone. My girlfriend often says, oh, I want to keep this. No, no, man, it’s already gone. It’s out of my head. Then it’s already gone.
Moore: So you’re not precious about your art?
Keer: No.
Moore: How?
Keer: I’m always focused on what’s next. I just want to work. I just want to work on new stuff, new, better stuff. It’s not that I don’t like the previous work, but I love more to focus on the next one.
Moore: It doesn’t sound like you’re a perfectionist. Would you describe yourself as a perfectionist?
Keer: Most of the people say that I am.
Moore: Yeah? Really? See, I don’t—I don’t, from our conversation, I don’t feel that way, though. Because I see you as someone who, as you’re talking about here, right, that if it doesn’t go quite as you expected, you roll with it. You go with the flow of what’s happening. You’re able to zoom out and see, okay, that turned out different than I thought it would, but it’s still great, and you’re able to walk away from it without just one more detail, one more detail. I don’t see that in—I don’t hear that from you about your work.
Keer: No. Maybe that’s because I’ve been growing up in the Netherlands. And if you’re grown up in that country, if you put up your head above the Mayfield like that, your head will be chopped off. And here I know in the U.S. you have to exaggerate a little bit, but I’m not used to that. Maybe it’s also about your feeling that I don’t exaggerate about my work that much. But it’s the way it is. No, but I also know if I work on something, it has to be good and I know it’s good. So yeah, I think there’s a difference for me.
Moore: I hear pride in your work, and I hear that you value the work that you do, but you don’t—you don’t see yourself as someone who, like, goes to bed at night just terrified and worried and anxious about your work. From what I hear of you saying about your work, is that you do the work for 16 hours and you go sleep.
Keer: Yeah, I sleep very well.
Moore: Yeah. I find that really fascinating. I’m someone who overthinks everything that I do. And it’s a bit refreshing, honestly, to see that you’re able to come into a space for a few weeks, really soak in as much as you can about where you are, do a work that you’re really proud of and is excellent work, and be able to walk away.
Keer: Maybe you think too much. Just do.
Moore: Well, there’s no denying that. Yeah. What keeps you inspired?
Keer: People. Yeah, people. The people I meet and the people I see. And yeah. And sometimes you see—okay, I travel a lot, and then I find the cultures. But mostly when I see how people move, how people walk, how people talk, that’s the most inspiring part. And everywhere is different. So that’s cool to see.
Moore: Do you see a difference in the way that different countries or different continents interact with and soak in public art?
Keer: Well, in general it’s mostly the same. Yeah. Like, also some comments are also the same. And I noticed that the street art in general is getting more appreciation. So that’s very good. When I started it, sometimes I worked, yeah, can you do it with chalk? So yeah, also good. But then it can only last just before the rain, right? And then it will wash off. And they said, no, yeah, that’s good because we don’t know if it’s appreciated by everyone. But after a while, after a few years, then they said, oh no, no, we want to keep it. Yeah, but now I made it with chalk. So that’s why you feel a little bit it’s changing. And that’s good.
Moore: When you think about some of the first public artwork that you did, have you been able to revisit it, see how it’s aged, see how it’s been embraced by the community at all?
Keer: Mostly I see that online. But I don’t go back to the work I did.
Moore: So yeah. What sort of comments do you hear from fans? Do you hear from folks who admire your work and are inspired by your work? Do you see emails, messages on social media?
Keer: Yeah, they ask me a lot of questions, also about the technique and how artists can make their career. Maybe advice, something. I’m always open for this kind of discussion.
Moore: Do you find it easy to explain to people how you do what you do? So say an artist wants to better understand how to make 3D art or make that sort of art. Do you find it easy to articulate? Or is it just like you learned through a bit of osmosis, or you learned in such a way that it’s hard for you to explain?
Keer: Well, I think the hardest part for the artist is finding its own kind of soul and its kind of signature. But the techniques can be learned. So whenever they ask something about the technique, I’m always open to spread the word and to also say something about that, because that’s nice to bring it also to other artists. But if you really want to find your own signature, you have to do that something extra. Something extra.
Moore: With that, I teach a class here at the university, and one of the things I always tell students is the more you do it, the better you’ll get at it. And I think that really stands for a lot of work that we do. Have you found that in your work, that the more you do it, the better you’ve gotten at it? The things that were once difficult are now second nature, the things that you thought were impossible you’re able to accomplish?
Keer: Yeah, I feel that also. It’s also that they say, I don’t know, it’s also in the U.S., but they say, oh, you have to work on something like 10,000 hours and then you master the skills. Of course, it also takes some talent, but yeah, it’s truly like if you want to perceive the way I do the perspective lines and the way I think about perspective, then you have to work. Yeah. Work on it very hard and see what you can achieve with it. It’s not only that you can like, oh, I want to do some 3D artwork and then, well, I know also some artists who just do it out of that feeling. But I see immediately how you can make it better if you’re using the right perspective.
Moore: Do you have a hard time taking what’s in here and putting it on a wall? Has that gotten easier over time?
Keer: I don’t try to make it easier. Because if it’s getting easy, then it can be boring, right? So I always try to do something extra to keep my skills going. That’s important. Don’t indulge yourself with, oh, I have this feeling now that I have a hang in it, so now I can do what I’m good at. No, just trying to push the limits. And that’s what I always try to do.
Moore: What’s a project that you maybe flew a little too close to the sun? You challenged yourself more than you expected to, and you found yourself struggling to meet that expectation, that maybe self-expectation.
Keer: Mostly that’s about time. I mostly forget about the time I have. I think, oh, I can do that in these days, but I’m stuck. Oh no, I can’t make it in that short amount of time. So yeah, that’s happened a lot.
Moore: When will you know that you’re done making art, in general or this one in general? I mean, will there come a point in your life, do you imagine a point in your life where maybe you’re 86 years old and you say, I don’t think I can keep doing this?
Keer: No, no. Never. When I’m dead or something. I will always, always do something with art. Of course, if you are not able to, maybe your body won’t function. But then I think my brain will still be producing something.
Moore: Are you able to turn it off at all? I mean, you sound like someone who’s just insatiably curious, someone who’s always excited for something new. Are you able to relax ever?
Keer: Yeah, I can relax. But mostly with my sketchbook and a beer.
Moore: What’s your beer of choice?
Keer: Just normal lager. Lager beer. Just refreshing. Yeah, I could have one now, but maybe afterwards.
Leon Keer is a street artist and muralist originally from the Netherlands. We spoke last week in the Walker Community Room at the Fayetteville Public Library.
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